Nicola Mizon is the co-founder of VIZTA DGTL, a Berlin-based game studio on a mission to reshape the intersection of gaming, fashion, and commerce. She is passionate about creating engaging, inclusive experiences that redefine industry norms. In this episode, she discusses the evolution of fashion gaming, opportunities for brand collaborations, and the impact of user-generated content. She also shares insights into VIZTA DGTL’s flagship platform, Kutur Runway, which aims to be the leading and largest digital fashion hub, and invites you to join the Alpha test.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• The evolution of fashion gaming and its impact on the gaming and fashion industries.
• Opportunities for brand collaborations and how they’re shaping the future of digital fashion.
• Kutur Runway’s innovative monetization strategy, blending free-to-play with brand partnerships and user-driven fashion creation.
• The growing presence of women in gaming and the potential for more diverse, feminine games to cater to this demographic.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

• Here’s Waldo Recruiting
• Lizzie Mintus on LinkedIn
• Nicola Mizon on Linkedin
• VIZTA DGTL
• Kutur Runway - Alpha Test
• Jen MacLean on the Here's Waldo Podcast
  

Episode Transcript

Welcome to the Here's Waldo Podcast, where we sit down with top visionaries and creatives in the video game industry. Together we'll unravel their journeys and learn more about the path they're forging ahead. Now, let's get started with the show.

Lizzie Mintus: Hi, I'm Lizzie Mintus. I'm the founder and CEO of Here's Waldo Recruiting, and this is the Here's Waldo Podcast. In every episode, we dive deep into conversations with creatives and founders and hear about their journey. You can expect to hear valuable lessons and get a glimpse into the future of the video game industry.

This episode is brought to you by Here's Waldo Recruiting. We are a boutique recruitment for the game and tech industry that values quality over quantity, transparency, communication, and diversity. Before introducing today's guest, I want to give a thank you to Ed Liu for introducing us at GDC this year. We were on the conference train together. So we got to spend a lot of time. 

Today we have Nicola Mizon with us. Nicola is the co-founder of VIZTA DGTL, a Berlin-based game studio on a mission to reshape the intersection of gaming, fashion, and commerce. She is passionate about creating engaging, inclusive experiences that redefine industry norms. Her flagship platform, Kutur Runway, is set to become the leading digital fashion social hub, blending game-driven creativity, community, and advanced technology. 

Thanks for being here today. Glad we could make this happen. 

Nicola Mizon: Thanks so much for having me. I'm really happy to be here, and I'm so happy we get to catch up in the new year. And yeah, we have lots to talk about. 

Lizzie Mintus: I'm excited. I've never had anyone who touches into fashion and games, which is are my two passions that are totally unrelated, but related here. Can you talk to everybody a bit more about your company? 

Nicola Mizon: Yeah, definitely. So we're VIZTA and we're building Kutur Runway. And for me, the vision of Kutur Runway is to explore the genre of fashion games that maybe hasn't been explored so far. So in the current fashion games market, there are these gamified shoppable experiences like Covet Fashion, and these products are more about the shopping and kind of the-commerce connection whereas there's also like from asia and places like this there's that fantasy fashion games. And these are very explored genres of fashion gaming but what we want to do is focus on that social fashion experience and really focus on adding depth to the gameplay and create something completely new, something that's really about like women coming together, collaborating with creativity, having a way to share your passion for fashion, as cliche as it sounds, but being able to build your own friendships, find your style, explore what you like and what you love in a really safe, gamified environment that has a lot more depth than maybe what's been out there in the market before.

Lizzie Mintus: So unlike other games, it's going to be a lot more interactive, but it will also have the real-world components of fashion. So you'll have real-world brands that people can explore. 

Nicola Mizon: Exactly. So I think this is the perfect thing because we've seen it work in other games, that brand integration. So we definitely don't want to lose that. And now with fashion brands looking for ways to engage, let's say, with the future generations, they're looking at gaming a lot more seriously than they previously did. 

Like everyone back in the day, people thought Louis Vuitton was crazy for collaborating with League of Legends. This was like way, way back. But actually they were really onto something and we're excited to collaborate with brands see how we can also push that, focusing on collaborating with different fashion councils as well, bringing brands that maybe don't have a global platform to like the public eye so we can really spotlight local fashion trends and local designers as well.

So that's something we feel really passionate about, but also allowing players to create their own fashion brand as well. So allowing you to step into the shoes of designers, a lot of fashion games, they're really great, allowing you to interact with brands, but we think you could do more. And definitely like through the pandemic, I loved playing Animal Crossing in these types of games. So I think the design component would be a great addition. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. So you can create your own and discover and interface with the brands you love. So cool. And so you worked in gaming before, and then you have two other co-founders, right? 

Nicola Mizon: Exactly, I don't think I could do this without my co-founders, completely. So there's Tom on one side, he has a very strong background in founding previous companies. He's one of the founding members of Bigpoint, and he has a huge network, really knowledgeable on the business side of gaming. And then I have Matthias, he is a fashion entrepreneur. So he's previously founded fashion brands. He's also been a white label designer for Miss Sixty, Zara, these kinds of brands as well. So he really knows how the fashion industry works. On top of that, he's a Web3 native, which is amazing for us and he's what we would call a bit of a tech geek as well. So this is the perfect mix.

And then with my expertise and more user-facing kind of front-end game development, we make a really great team. So we wouldn't be able to do it without that unique combination because we really have the fashion eye, we have the business eye, and kind of that product eye and it's a really exciting journey so far.

Lizzie Mintus: I know. I saw your co-founder, I was like, gosh, that's the perfect team to create what you're creating. So congrats. How did you all come together? Did one of you have the idea and then recruit the others? Did you do founder dating? How did that happen? 

Nicola Mizon: So it was actually pretty organic. So I know Tom from my time at Spil Games, he was my CEO.

I knew him also in previous roles that I had as wel. I'd heard of him, but never worked closely together with him. But at Spil Games, I really got to see his leadership style, and how he grew the company at the time it was going from this transition from portal to mobile. So it was a really big change for this kind of established company. And kind of seeing that leadership style, it was very inspiring for me to see. And I really held a good light for him. And then after a couple of years, we ended up working or kind of crossing paths again in consulting together for congregate, and we were consulting on these things. And then I shared with him, I had this idea to do a fashion game. 

One thing you should know about me is that I'm a fashion gamer, very passionate fashion gamer. It's always been my dream to make a fashion game. It's just I've never had the right consolation, or it never felt like the right moment. And when we were just sitting, we were talking, and I was like, I would really love to make a fashion game. It was at a moment when the market was changing. started seeing a lot more in digital fashion. It became a little bit more acceptable. 

So I was like, I think now might be the right time to do something. And I really wanted to confide in someone like Tom to bring that idea forward. And he said, I think it could be good. We were there with a couple of other people as well, who were like, yeah, we should do something in fashion gaming. And it started from that. And I would say that then Tom said, I know this guy, he was a fashion designer. He's into Web3 right now. Let's bring him in. And it was just like instantly, he got it.

It was really cool. It was a merging of the minds moment where he was able to elevate the idea because this idea is like my baby. It's something I've been playing around with and thinking about since 2016, 2014, and even beyond that, playing with paper dolls and things.

So it was really special to share it with these two minds and they're able to not only take it, take it at its face value, but also grow it as well and bring their own ideas and bring it in a way that it is now. And I'm really grateful for it. So it was through the network. That was how we all were able to connect 

Lizzie Mintus: That's always how it happens, in the best way. And you said you're so into fashion games yourself.

Can you talk about the evolution of fashion games? I mean what has really been trending over the last few years? And then, obviously you see the evolution with your own product, but where do you see the market going as a whole?

Nicola Mizon: This is a great question. So for me, like the first true fashion game that I was playing was this Rugrats themed game on the Game Boy. So it was this totally Angelica game where you're Angelica, you're running around the shopping mall. It was collecting clothes, doing kind of runways in order to unlock and escape the mall, so to say.

And that was the first time that beyond playing with paper dolls that I was like, Oh, that's a game. And that was cool. And it was like, super girly and super unapologetic. And I was like, I was really into it. But after that, it was very much flash games, drag and drop dress up, and I didn't really see much evolution beyond that. And that to me was surprising because I loved games like RuneScape. I would just dress my character and dress my avatar, and I was like, why can't I just do this all the time? The same with Sims, and any game that has a character creator component, I would always kind of be really excited to go into these games. But I would be like, Yeah, but I don't want to do anything else other than play with the clothes. So for me, I was always scratching and looking for something. 

I really think the market changed with Covet Fashion. When that came out in 2016, 2014, that kind of time period. It was still that 2D dolly dress up feeling, but what they did so great was that gamified shopping experience that I mentioned before. They really brought the brands into it that had that e-commerce component. The art style at the time was really cool. It looked like pictures from e-commerce and it was very fun and very nice. And I feel like the market from that point didn't really evolve and Covet is still dominating the market 10 years later. More than 10 years later, it's still the top fashion game that's out there.

What you have seen from Asia in the fashion game market is these more fantasy experiences like the Nikki franchise, Time Princess, these kind of fashion games that have a really strong RPG component to them, but they're not collaborating with real world fashion. It's very much like Alice in Wonderland, or very kawaii, super fun to play with. But at one point, it's not relatable, so it's not going to be everyone's cup of tea, especially if you're into fashion.

You have these two contrasting areas of the fashion game space. And what you see trending in the past couple of years is the fashion industry is looking more and more to digital spaces and looking how they can engage new audiences there. So you see the collaborations happening within Fortnite, within Roblox.

These kind of focus on skins for monetization, this kind of thing. People are starting to see fashion and visual representation in these digital worlds are actually something that people are willing to spend money on. And maybe something that they could cash in on in a way like the fashion brands or unlock new audiences.

And you see a lot of that happening now that's definitely one trend that you see. But also playing with the new technologies that's out there. So I like fashion first with AI as well, playing with AI, because fashion games are notoriously a content trap. So I think this is one of the reasons why it's such an underdeveloped area is people are a little bit scared because it's expensive to make a fashion game because really the only way around it is making new garments every week, kind of pumping it out there. So that's really the content. And I can see from a business case wise, if you're working with brands, it's a bit easier. But if you're just making the garments yourself and things, it's expensive. And this is where AI, the technology there, and utilizing that can really help.

You also see with Roblox, I don't know if you know the game Dressed to Impress. But it's a little experience of Roblox. It was released a year ago and it's already got 3.5 billion gameplays. And the premise of the game is very simple. You'll make your avatar. You've got a time limit. You run around this room. You need to dress very quickly towards a theme and then at one point the timer runs out and you present on the runway and the other people in the room, they vote and there's a winner. So it's a very fast paced, smackable game experience, but it's fun, it's silly, it's very TikTokable, like I love watching TikToks of it as much as I love playing it because it's just so unexpected the results that you would get. 

And I think this is going to be a trend that we see a lot more in fashion games moving forward. These fun little gamified experiences that's focused on just pure fashion and making a game out of that experience, making a game out of that dress up. I hope that kind of makes sense. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, no, it does. And I just had Jen MacLean on my podcast and she's building games for Gen Z and Gen Alpha and she was talking about how you need to have a really engaging moment fast because the attention span is shorter and how building a game for a younger generation is totally different.

How are you thinking about making your game TikTokable or making it appealing in general? The younger generation wants very different things than the older generation. So how are you addressing that? 

Nicola Mizon: That's really great. So I think there's different ways that we can do it and it's always really hard because I feel like we're a product that is trying to please everyone because you've got the existing fashion game audience who are playing covert and did play Kim Kardashian before it closed down these kinds of games.

And they're a little bit older. And this new generation. So for us, what we really want to do is prioritize cause. The platform feeling, because what with the younger generation is they're not playing games for the game, they're playing for socialization. So if you kind of trap someone or trap this audience in that they have to go there and that they're just playing the game, that's not really the best way to do it. 

So for us, we wanted to create this fashion platform where you have areas where you can play the game, but really it's like you enter this initial space and you have a choice. I can just go and socialize with my friends and not participate in the PVE, not participate in the PVP and just go hang out if I want to. And I think this kind of voice moment and kind of keeping the game as sociable as possible and not trapping you into one kind of type of loop, it's gonna be really critical for us to engage with that audience 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, that makes sense. You're giving options of what people can do or not do and they can play the game that they want to play. And then, in terms of monetization, what is your plan there? You mentioned web3. Is it free to play? Is it pay to play? Is it a subscription? Do brands get involved? How does that work? 

Nicola Mizon: So we're definitely going to be a free to play product at our core. This is where our history is. So we really want to keep it not pay to win or not anything like this, but really create a really cool free to play game.

I think there's definitely space for brand collaboration, so sponsorships, kind of partnerships. This is definitely one part of the monetization. And we also see user generated content as critical to our kind of ecosystem. We really want to allow players to make their own fashion. And that's not just giving them recipes, let's say, to follow within the game. We will have that for the type of player that's maybe not so creative and just wants a different way to access garments, but also talking about creator tools that we can make for the community where they can really make garments for the game. 

We're also compatible with existing garment creation tools like Cloth 3D or wherever you're able to create garments or currently able to create garments because we really want to enable anyone who's currently creating digital fashion to become a creator on our platform. And that component will have a rev share. Which could be a monetization avenue for us as well as advertising. That's definitely one part that we would like to explore, not just like interstitial ads or kind of pop ups or these reward videos, but really thinking about the e-commerce component of the game, how we can structure a little bit more looking to that for inspiration as well.

So we've definitely got a lot of different avenues that we're exploring. As well as subscriptions for the VIP users, loyalty programs, this kind of thing. So it's a really broad area for us. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. Cool. You have so many different options there. And I could see designing something that's really beautiful and then, Hey, here's some real life garments that are similar to this that you might want to purchase. I feel like the Shopify experience is really cool buying what you want. 

Can you talk to me about the fundraising journey that you have been on so far? 

Nicola Mizon: It's a tough one, but I would say that we were really lucky with the timing of our pre seed because it was the end of 2023 and it was a really tough time in the market, so we were really happy to close the pre seed at that moment. I wouldn't say it was easy because you're going around with a piece of paper and a dream, and you really need to convince the industry that has neglected this space for so long, that this is somewhere to take a shot on. And we spoke with the fashion people, and they're like, we don't understand games. You speak with the games people, like we don't understand fashion. We're not so Web3 enough all the time for this kind of Web3. So we really had a lot of, let's say, trial and error with How to communicate our ideas. 

So this was pre-seed was like baptism by fire in a way. And I was happy we'd got it done and we had a lot of learning. And right now we're going into kind of this seed race. And I would say it feels totally different because now we have an MVP. Now we have a lot more proof points in the market. A lot more people are thinking about fashion games or talking about fashion games, especially thanks to Roblox and what's been going on there. So now we're not completely new or alien, but it's still it's a tough industry right now. 

But we have to see how it goes for us. We're pretty optimistic. We've had some great conversations at the end of last year and we're going into the year strong with a couple more really great conversations that we're excited to take forward. And we're going to Tokyo. We'll be at GDC. We have Pocket Gamer, these kinds of events as well that we will be heading towards. So we feel optimistic, cautiously optimistic that the learnings from pre-seed about how to communicate, let's say better the idea to these different verticals that we need to talk to. So we're hoping it's a little bit easier. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. It sounds like you made some progress. So congrats. And I always like to share knowledge on my podcast and fundraising is such a common hurdle that people overcome. And you talked about explaining like you have these, you have fashion, you have web three, you have traditional game VCs. And you said you had some learning about communication. Can you double click on that and share more? Do you have a different pitch for all of them? How do you, have you figured out how to tweak it in a way that resonates so far? 

Nicola Mizon: I think it's not sustainable to have to make a different piece of material for everyone you're talking to. But what really helped us was when we focused on something that all of them can resonate with and that's the visual component. So really focusing on producing videos and visuals where it makes some of the concepts that we're talking about a lot more tangible. So whether it's having a video that showcases our garment production pipeline that brings a little bit more confidence to the games industry, because they can see that, okay, they know how to make the fashion and how they're approaching it, or having a little bit more details around the gamification and giving something that the fashion industry can touch because then they can see how they would be represented in that experience.

So really for us, it was not sustainable to keep changing our storyline or adapting it so much. Of course, you have to do a certain percentage of it, but finding these really strong visuals that resonated across and then building out the storylines around that. And it made the workload a lot less jumping from meeting to meeting.

Lizzie Mintus: Makes sense. And then, yeah, congrats on building an MVP. Can you talk about your journey to get from the very initial phase of, okay, we have this vision to actually executing it to getting it to where it is today. How have you accomplished this? 

Nicola Mizon: So I would say it's not all sunshine. It was definitely tougher than we expected. We're very confident in making games, but we definitely set ourselves a strong standard with how we wanted to look and how we wanted to approach certain challenges that we know fashion games would have. And that was specifically around the visual side of the product and kind of that content production.

So we wanted to ensure that we weren't promising more than we could deliver. So it was important for us to validate that we can make a game that looks really cool and is a sustainable business model that is not super expensive to make. So this was one of the things that we really wanted to focus on and I have to say there definitely were moments in the journey where we tried something and we did have to throw it away. And it wasn't until we got Matthias on board who had this fashion component that he was able to pull the pieces together in a way of, hey, we do this in the fashion industry and this is relevant for the games industry, how we could approach garment production and that digital asset creation and it really connected some of the dots in a way that We didn't think so it was thinking outside the box that really helped us in the end get to where we did.

It wasn't easy at all, but I'm really pleased with the progress we made and how we grew as a team, and how we validated some areas. We weren't scared to throw something in the bin, or be like you know what we have to pivot. And that's always really about creating a really good strength of the team. Having those honest conversations with each other about what was working, what wasn't working, and getting us to the point where it is now.

Lizzie Mintus: What about playtesting or validating through the market? How have you thought about that, and at what stage? 

Nicola Mizon: We're actually just starting. So now that we have this MVP, beginning of this year, where were first starting to put it in, let's say, the player's hands. We've had a lot of friends and family tests. So we have a lot of people that we know from the games industry that we're like, Hey, can you play this? Or just giving out my phone a lot at events and things like that. If you are always so fashionable, you'll have to test out this game. You always have the best outfits.

So like bringing it into the digital space is perfect. And so we have been doing that, but now it's the time where we have this sign up right now. We've been working and talking with existing fashion gamers, talking with Gen Z kind of like universities, these kinds of things to start getting that initial wave of testers.

It's pretty stressful, I would say. It's not something that is easy, but we're really lucky. It's a topic that a lot of people resonate with. And so far, when we've been putting it in people's hands, it's a very intuitive kind of how people have been engaging with the application. And this is something that's been really pleasant to see and unexpected, I would say.

But it's been really nice, but we're starting this year and if you're open to testing, I would love to send you the builds so you can test it again and have a look and things like that. But yeah, it's really exciting. It's so scary. I have to say because it's something that you've been working on for so long and to put it out there and watch it grow, it's a really exciting time, for sure. 

Lizzie Mintus: That is exciting. Yeah, I went to a release of a new game super, super early. It was so interesting to watch all the devs and all the artists, they're like, Okay, this isn't the final version, just so you know, I could see that they were so stressed. But yeah, it's really amazing to watch people engage with your product. So if you have a link where people can sign up to playtest, I will include that with the podcast. 

I would love to hear about your entrepreneurial lessons. It's not sunshine and rainbows. Like you said, this is your first company, right? What are some of your biggest learnings?

Nicola Mizon: Yeah, I would describe myself as an engine room rat. So I was always operational and I always felt like in my previous roles, I'm there working with the team. I was doing kind of more directive operations and really hands-on sort of stuff. And I really socialized with my team, but not outside of that.

And I wish I could go back in time and say to myself, network is so important. Really, I had no idea until I started going on this journey, how many favors you would ask for friends. And I hate having to depend on my co-founders because they have such a vast network. They're way more connected. And I wish I could go back and tell myself, even if you're in an operational role, you don't think you need it, there will be a time when you need it. And you should just go out there, socialize, speak with people, challenge yourself because there will be a time. 

And the games industry is a weird place because everyone's super, super friendly. I feel like every time I've gone somewhere or gone to different events, I've always been able to like, network and speak with people and stuff like that. But it's just so important and you never know who would be the person that kind of helps you as well. So it makes such a difference to be kind to everyone, to speak with everyone, and not just think about what value people can bring to you, but also what you can bring to them because the industry is a really lovely place and I think if we can all help more each other to found really great games and do really innovative things, I think it would help make everything a bit better. So networking, definitely. 

I wish I would throw away everything I knew about, or what I thought I knew about running a company because it's so different working for a corporate or a studio that's maybe like mid size or even small size that's already established compared to now.

You have to be so not afraid to get your hands dirty in different roles and you need to learn fast, different things that maybe aren't so necessarily tied to your core, but you just have to do it for the greater good. And you can't be scared of it. And that's something I kind of anticipated, but I wish I just threw away maybe some of the things that were holding me back oh, by the book, you have to do it like this, or people say you have to do it like that, or this manifesto says this and we should do it like that because I feel like we wasted more time trying to perfect the process and not focus on the other things. So that would definitely be that. 

And my third and final thing is not to die in perfection. Because I feel like with everything, with the pitch deck, we took too long sometimes. I felt like we were just killing ourselves. The same with the MVP, kind of certain areas. And it could be a really good moment where you end up drowning your own company or drowning your own success because you have to move fast. I'm not saying do things rubbish or don't give it what it is, but just don't die in that perfection because you don't have the time or the budget. Those would be my key things I would say. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, the perfection thing is hard. When is good enough? It's like the million dollar question for a business. You touched the network, too, and that is so important. And you never know, like that. Ed Liu connected us. I don't even know how I met Ed, but Ed's great. I hung out with him at Gamescom. And Ed's been an amazing person in my life. And, yeah, I probably just went up to him and talked to him at a conference somewhere. So it is really important.

And then your game is focused on women, right? This would be mostly your target audience. Can you talk to me a bit about the gaming market for women? Other than fashion games, what is out there? What are some of the top, other platforms and just the state of the women gaming market in general? How it's differentiating, because I feel like the younger generation, everybody's a gamer. It's not really so differentiated, right? 

Nicola Mizon: Definitely. I would say what I've noticed a lot more is that gaming isn't just for the nerds or whatever. It's for everyone. It's cool to be a gamer. It's cool to be a Twitch streamer and more and more women are playing games. What I see from the data, I think it was at the end of last year, like in the US 54% of the mobile gaming market is females.

And I think mobile gaming makes gaming way more accessible because it's not everyone's cup of tea to sit on a console or to play PC game and things like that. And mobile gaming just makes it super accessible. Like my Nana, she's a very avid Candy Crush player. She's playing Hay Day all the time, these types of games, but she wouldn't call herself a gamer, but she's really engaged with those kinds of products. And I think there's a lot more of that in our generation, kind of millennials and above, are okay, gaming is way more accessible. 

What I see for women is, and I'm open to be corrected, I don't see much variety of gaming, I would say. I see a lot of puzzle gaming, or focused on these farming gamings, or like these kind of products, and you see a lot of rinse and repeat, like another Solitaire game, and another Solitaire game, or another, and you see, once there's a formula, it's rinsed and repeated in every theme and then something else. 

Whereas I look at the gaming market for what's available for the male players. And I see a lot more variety and maybe that's because there's been a lot more time where males have played games. And now it's just coming more and more that females are playing games, especially on mobile. So for me, I think there could be a lot more variety of gamings offered for this demographic that also offer a little bit more of a safer place or a bit more unapologetic in terms of being themed super strongly feminine.

Like you get these games that are very masculine in kind of theme and I feel like feminine games are really tame. And I want to see something that is glitter and glam, and speaks to my inner self. I want everything pink and kawaii, and things like that and something like this. So maybe that's like the change, but I definitely see a lot more female gamers my age as well. Like a lot of my friends who weren't gamers before. Now that they have a bit more money and things like that, they are playing mobile games. And I think that's a really cool and super exciting opportunity for the future.

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, it is a big opportunity, and a big opportunity, I think, for people from a recruiting standpoint to think about who they have on their team and who they're building games for and making sure that's properly reflected in who works for them. 

I have one last question before I ask it. I want to point people to your website. It's a V I Z T A digital D G T L dot com. The last question for any of our listeners who are thinking about starting their own studio in games or in this uncharted territory that you're in where you're combining a few different things, what advice would you give them? What should they think about as they embark?

Nicola Mizon: Oh my gosh, so many things. I think it's just don't be too afraid. It sounds so crazy, but don't overthink things and don't be too afraid because it's that paralysis and indecision that you can create for yourself. So if you have an idea, get a piece of paper, go out there and pitch. You can do it alongside your job, your internship, whatever you're doing, it doesn't hurt to apply to these accelerators, to just cold call people on LinkedIn and send it. You're bound to get some sort of feedback. And that's how you start. It's about going from zero to one. And some people get so intimidated by that jump from zero to a hundred. just take it easy, just focus on zero to one. And then you can then go from one to two and take it up from there. So that would be my biggest advice, is just start doing it. And really a piece of paper, a strong concept and a strong belief and work on your narrative and how you communicate it. You'll be surprised how far you can get with that and research the accelerators, the support around in your community for the idea you want to build. There's a lot out there. And just go for it. 

Lizzie Mintus: That's great advice. Yeah. Someone told me when I started my company that I could always get another job if it didn't work out. You're right. I should just try it, what happens, but it is so scary to jump into this big unknown. But yeah, you can just have a piece of paper and For me, talking to people, I think, was the most helpful thing. Just talking to people who did it. I'm a really high fact finder, so I'm always like, tell me how you did this exact thing. Like, how might I do this? Yeah. People are really willing to help though. Like you said, we're in a great industry. 

We've been talking to Nicola Maison, the co-founder and CEO of VIZTA DGTL. Nicola, where can people go to play-test your game, contact you, learn more about you, fund you? 

Nicola Mizon: I think just reach out to me on LinkedIn or any of my co-founders. We're pretty responsive. And yeah, on the website, there'll be an area to sign up for the playtesting so you can put your interest there, but just message me. We keep it easy and yeah, I'll be bound to reply. 

Lizzie Mintus: Thank you so much.

Nicola Mizon: Thank you. 

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