Sami Ramly, founder of Echo Chunk AI and creator of the viral game Echo Chess, takes us on a journey from his early days learning chess at just 3 years old to the development of Echo Chess—a viral puzzle game that combines chess mechanics with real-time AI-driven obstacles. Recently, he raised $1.4M pre-seed to take Echo Chess and his vision for the company to the next level.
Tune in to dig into Ramly's iterative design process, his vision for blending puzzle and strategy games, and the role of AI in game development. The episode also touches on the importance of early user feedback and the impact of innovative game designers like Vlado on Ramly's approach to game design.
Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn:
- The power of iteration and why it’s underrated in game design
- The potential and role of AI in gaming
- Why rapid prototyping accelerates creativity and innovation
- The importance of early user feedback in shaping successful games
Resources Mentioned in this episode
- Here’s Waldo Recruiting
- Lizzie Mintus on LinkedIn
- Sami Ramly on LinkedIn
- Echo Chunk AI
- Echo Chess
Episode Transcript
Welcome to the Here's Waldo podcast, where we sit down with top visionaries and creatives in the video game industry. Together we'll unravel their journeys and learn more about the path they're forging ahead. Now, let's get started with the show.
Lizzie Mintus: Hi, I'm Lizzie Mintus. I'm the founder and CEO of Here's Waldo Recruiting, and we are a boutique video game recruitment firm. This is the Here's Waldo Podcast. In every episode, we dive deep in conversations with creatives, founders, and execs about their journey. You can expect to hear valuable lessons and get a glimpse into the future of the industry.
This episode is brought to you by Here's Waldo Recruiting. We are a boutique recruiting firm for the game industry that values quality over quantity, transparency, communication, and diversity.
Today we have Sami Ramly with us. He is the founder of Echo Chunk AI and the creator of Echo Chess, the viral daily puzzle game where you are what you eat. He built the game's blitz mode using AI real time generation with a model he trained on game states to leverage AI as a co pilot for game design. We'll have to dig into that more. And at the age of three, Sami learned how to play chess and he's been captivated ever since.
Let's get started. Thanks for being on. And what we didn't even mention in your bio, you just raised $1.4 million dollars, so congratulations.
Sami Ramly: Thank you, Lizzie. Thanks for having me too. I'm excited.
Lizzie Mintus: Me too. So for any of our listeners that haven't played your game, can you share a little bit more about the game itself?
Sami Ramly: Sure, yeah. It's actually great because people who play don't need to know any kind of chess. There's still grandmasters who play it and enjoy it a lot, but it's pretty approachable. So the best way to think about it is chess puzzles but you are what you eat. And what that means is that every time you're capturing a piece you actually turn into that piece so let's say you're a rook you know you're going around the board you just capture the pawn you just lost all your rook abilities now you're stuck being a pawn you can only go up. And then the opposite is true. So think of it as one use only of chess. There's obstacles around the board and the goal is to clear the whole board.
So you start with one color. There's no opponent. The pieces don't move and you're just clearing your way around the board. But because of that echoing mechanism, hence the name of the game is like you turn into the echo of every piece you capture because of the echoing mechanic and the obstacles, it's very easy to get yourself stuck. And so you really have to think, okay, what is the right path to navigate through your captures.
And every day there is a new classic puzzle that's kind of more for the world fans, people who are doublers and like puzzles and just want something that's interesting. They're still challenging . And then there's an epic puzzle, which is more for puzzle enthusiasts, pro players and so on. They are set to be 24 hours in your local time zone.
And as you mentioned Lizzie earlier, there's a blitz mode where you're racing against the clock. There is a real time random board that appears and you're eating your way around them echoing no matter where you end up, you will carry over that piece and tile for the next stage that gets randomly generated in real time. And every time you clear a stage, you want some time back.
So it's kind of like Tetris. You're trying to clear stages before you die effectively. And people have been really enjoying this kind of roguelike approach to chess. There's people building insane kinds of combos. If you get yourself stuck, you can shuffle them away, but you lose your combo. So you're really trying to think through how do I get the right piece for the next stage and end my board there. And people can play it for free on echochess. com on any device. It's like a web game, so you can download it anywhere. It's progressive web app.
Lizzie Mintus: Cool. Yeah, I'll have to play. I have to play games for my job.
Sami Ramly: That's awesome. That's exciting.
Lizzie Mintus: Lots of people think it's very cool. So how did you come up with this idea?
Sami Ramly: Yeah, there's a lot of aspects to it, right? What's the journey that leads to iterating ideas like this? And then there's, how do you get this particular idea and then how do you know it's a good idea versus a random idea.
So I think rewinding a little bit, as you mentioned, like started playing chess very early and got really into strategy games. Just turn based strategy games in general. I love Heroes of Might and Magic. If anyone here has played this, probably like 20 years old at this stage, but still a very active player community. There's actually a really good mod called Horn of the Abyss, if anyone's interested. It's an active PvP community. Amazing game.
So, we had a family PC, and I had older siblings, so I had to wake up super early just to get time on that one chair. I used to play this game. And then, they actually have a hot seat multiplayer, where you literally have to get out of the seat. Your friend comes in, sits, and plays their turn, and then they step out and play. And then they have a map maker. I used to make some custom maps.
Anyway, point is, I think I've always been into strategy games or specific turn based strategy games. And I think there's something magical about them. And so I think one thing that I've kind of started noticing much more in my adult life, as an adult gamer, very proudly and happily, is that there's almost like a decreased supply of really good strategy games these days that are actually different. And I think like it's because you see a lot of... I mean, I'm not complaining, there's a lot of remasters and sequels. I love them, but it's almost like a lot of interesting things that are just taking once more.
And the interesting part is, you ask yourself, like, does that mean that the demand is gone? Or is it just that the supply hasn't caught up? And I really feel like there is really latent demand for good puzzle games and strategy games. And you see that, with something as old as chess, probably 2,000 years old, however old this game is. Getting it's kind of like a big resurgence, including with new generations. You ask yourself, why? Why is it like this? There's no kind of fresh ideas in this space. And then, consequently, what would lead to more fresh ideas and be able to iterate faster.
And I think there is really something about being able to shorten the learning cycle, being able to just do like multiple ideas and iterate. And I can talk a lot about iteration. And I think probably the last big novel thing on the medium as a whole, probably with Dungeons and Dragons, they want somebody to come up with like, let's quantify imagination, put some numbers on things and just roll some dice or something.
And I feel like there's this moment where the medium can evolve as a whole. So anyway, long story short, this is how I started tinkering with this space as a whole, like, okay. Terms of strategy game. And then you approach it from puzzle games first, strategy games first. I have a lot of thoughts on this. And iterating on this and so getting to like, how do you get to Echo Chess in particular? And why this mechanic first.
There's three things there. I think one part about chess in particular, probably a contrarian, people might strongly disagree. That's fine. I'm just a random guy on the internet. You don't have to agree, but I feel like chess is a fantastic medium. But because it's had like centuries to optimize and there's a highly competitive scene, it's almost like there's a medal that ever emerges. And now, I mean, unless you're on the top end of the game, basically you're just memorizing openings, recognizing mate in x maneuvers. And the kind of early game and the late game are kind of pinned to certain things. And there's still a lot of thinking obviously, but that creates a certain meta you're playing. And if you're a newcomer, I'm not going to memorize all this chess theory. I don't know what I'm doing.
And so I think basically there ended up being some kind of unintentional gatekeeping. So I think the first thing I wanted to have was a very easy to learn, very hard to master game, like that kind of strategic depth of chess without making it confusing, overwhelming, or people getting PTSD - I tried chess once when I was a kid, not for me. I don't think of myself as a chess player.
I think the second thing was basically that echoing mechanic. And I feel like in most games, I don't feel the same way, Lizzie, but whether it's a FPS, RPG, whatever the game is you're playing, whatever the game genre, usually if there's a concept of some opponent or enemy, you're effective either circumvent the enemy, just escape, beat the enemy and just continue. And you never really have to deal with the consequences. You just bullied your way through some enemies.
In chess, you're a queen, you just capture a bunch of pieces. So I wanted to play with the concept, like, what if you just actually have to step in that opponent's shoes, and now you get to deal with the consequences of, you just lost all your abilities, you It's like being a pawn. The opposite is true. If you're like a pawn, you can usurp like a king or something and you get more of an interesting take on it.
I was talking to some friends after and I think the closest I can think of, I'm sure there's a lot of games that have toyed with this, but the closest I can think of that tangentially has this kind of concept I think is neat is a hitman, where you probably were defeating someone and then maybe you get their clothes and equipment, but if you kind of stretch the imagination, I think that's an interesting mechanic.
And honestly, the third one is just having whatever makes chess interesting, plus the fact that it's a universal language. If people haven't played chess, they've probably seen it at some point in their life. So there's no language barrier. There's no that kind of having to get hung on like, okay, how do I even move to get started? You can really get to the interesting part. And you can still have that kind of depth of strategy.
So I'm going to pause there. That's kind of the gist of the story here.
Lizzie Mintus: But what pushed you to really, I mean, many people have ideas, everyone has ideas, but very few people really execute them. So I want to know more about you, you play a lot of games, you're three and then, how did you go from having these ideas and being an avid game player to starting your own company and raising money?
Sami Ramly: Yeah, honestly, I don't know if anyone can answer this question with full consciousness, because you're trying to attribute things to how things evolve and connecting the dots backward, but I can tell you with a lot of bias how I recall these moments.
I think there's probably two ingredients. I think you need some kind of intense dissatisfaction with the status quo. You're playing a lot of these games. Okay, like, cool. Basically, someone should solve this problem. You know, might as well be me.
And then I think as part of that, it's exciting to be part of something that's much bigger than yourself. It's not just like, might as well be me, but might as well try to make a dent here by starting something where you can get other smart people, and other people who are passionate about it. And then you have a greater whole, and then together, you can do something that's much bigger than multiple games and so on.
And I think the second part is, you just have to honestly start somewhere. I think we're honestly very fortunate. We take it for granted a lot. I think that there's probably a few generations plus minus, we take it for granted that we are just really on the shoulders of giants, what they say. And then, we have the internet. We have tools. We have AI now that can shorten the running cycle a lot.
We also have these platforms, and it's really easier than ever to just at least start getting the ideas out of your head and into the world. And then they bounce into the actual real test, which is other humans and someone's not biased. And if you don't get over that first time, and it's just definitionally, it's impossible to get there.
Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, but it's interesting. I like to talk to entrepreneurs and lots of people are just satisfied. So it's always interesting to hear about what made you start. But I like that you said you have this passion. You have this long term interest and you have a bigger vision because I feel like no company can really succeed if your goal is just to make money, unless maybe you're in finance and making money with other people. But you still have to have a purpose. Like, why are you doing this? What do you want to solve and who will love what you're making?
Sami Ramly: Very true. And I think honestly, the whole thing about what we take for granted, like what we have, I feel this way. I mean, when was the last time we thought about, Oh my God, fridges. You know what I mean? We just say, okay, there's a fridge, grow up. There's a fridge. I don't think anyone remembers the appearance of fridges, but there was a time where people used to literally go on like months-long journeys to transport salt from across the world just to keep meat dry or go get ice cubes, ice blocks on ships and whatever. And we just take it for granted.
And I think the fact that literally anyone these days can just have an idea, and it might be a shitty idea. We just start with something, just get it out of your head. You get the real thing and then you're able to do some prototypes and get it out in the world and iterate faster and faster.
That's a really nice privilege that we have that a hundred years ago, people did not have. I think people should just put their ideas out in the world more and iterate. I think iteration is highly, highly underrated here.
Lizzie Mintus: Okay. So I want to know your very initial idea. What was that? And then how did you prototype that idea?
Sami Ramly: Okay, great question. It's two parts. There's elements of the initial idea that I can help you talk about. And there's elements that we're actually reworking different ways. So they'll be coming at some point. So stay tuned, but I'll give you a glimpse. I think there's usually when you think about the process of game design or any kind of design process. Let's design more broadly, If you really want to simplify there's like an additive way or a subtractive way, right? Like you think about whether you have clay or play doh. You add a bunch of things or 3d printing you just add one layer at a time whatever, and then you keep building towards something and then you have the sculpting. You have a block of stone and then you chunk up stuff and you keep something.
And I think like the interesting part here, I learned the hard way in the process, actually a lot of really interesting ideas start from sculpting because there's just so many things that you know that you have a signals and parameters these days that actually are getting to the real kernel that is the fun kernel that actually is interesting is like a process of removal.
And so the first iterations were actually more complex, and complex in the sense that basically there's a lot of really interesting complexity, but also there's sometimes complexities that actually get in the way of you being able to enjoy the actual aha moment of a game or mechanic before you get interested enough.
And so if you think about, okay, how can I keep forcing myself to remove things like stochastic enemies, things that have to do with asymmetric movements, just remove some of these things and keep what actually makes this game interesting or this kind of inside I'm trying to see through this block of stone like there's some dissatisfaction. There's some kind of general insight I'm trying to manifest somehow in this design process and by definition, It's not fully formed yet because you're brainstorming and iterating, creating, but just trying to force more constraints in the design process. And then the brain works in interesting ways where you put yourself in this mindset where you start finding interest. What if we do this, like this assumption, whatever, and then you find things around it. It's very theoretical. So what does that mean?
We made a physical thing just to mess around with it. And so, literally the first prototype was actually, I think it's probably the same wooden board, but basically it's like you just get something you can put your ideas out of your head into the world and then play around with it. So to give you an example with Echo Chess, very practically, there are obstacles around the board that you can't pass through. It just needs to prototype those. I mean, sure, you can write something real quick, like a few lines of code, but before that, just put an obstacle, it doesn't matter, right?
So just put sideway pieces on the board, reduce the size, whatever. Just get people to try it. And I had to get an extra set of pieces from eBay, just because you can't have five queens in normal size, just need a bunch of extra pieces, just iterate and try stuff. But then the second part becomes, okay, like you, you've tried a lot of these. Basically you're the game engine. Honestly pretend to be the game engine and move things around that people are playing, which again, going back to Dungeons and Dragons, like that's a major innovation that started. You know, the Dungeon Master or Game Master, you don't need to build all this stuff before you have it.
Interestingly, that was earlier around. This was a technological constraint. And now, there's virtual DMs. But I think the same thing applies. And I think that for the first prototype in a virtual environment, again, if you see the first version of Echo Chess, you'd just say, what is this? It's just embarrassing. I think there's a saying I forgot, because I maybe read Hoffman or someone. Like if you're not embarrassed by the first version of your product, you shift too late. So we definitely did not ship too late from there.
One last thing, I'll touch on that. I think in the game industry I've been seeing it, and I think it's been changing recently, which is great, but I think historically there's been a hesitance for people to put things out for others to try before they're fully baked. And sometimes, it's like seven, eight years. And I think that's fair in some situations. Also I think Hollywood has this kind of model, like it's a new movie with some creative director, I think that's fair. But I like to invite people to think about, is this the only model, right? And you have to do this for every slice or chunk of the whole creative process.
Because, the tech way of doing a startup way of doing it is like almost the opposite, right? People in Silicon Valley have been almost brainwashed to a point where they can do A/B testing, lean start methodology, just put something out there, Wizard of Oz kind of prototype.
And I think there's like almost two mental models. And they have very good reasons on both sides and obviously, making 3d real time games is different than just putting a landing page, but there is something in there to be said about where the tools are today and what that process could look like.
Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, that's a huge commonality on the podcast that people say. Get user feedback really early.
Okay. So you had your first prototype, which was embarrassing for you later, but you put it out there and then how did you recruit people to prototype your game? How did you know, I guess, when you've had enough feedback or did you get feedback that was just transformative and then, like, how do you know when your iteration process basically is done?
Sami Ramly: Yeah, no, excellent question. Well, in reality, no one can know. But what you can know, and I think that's the definite answer there is, what are some leading indicators that can give you some indication of something that was like. Okay, this is on the right track. We're all on the right track. And then there's some like lagging indicator where, you know, Okay, I put this game out. It's been like six years. Not a single soul cares to play it. I mean, okay, sure, but it's lagging.
So I think, the question is probably more like, okay, how do you identify leading indicators or how do you hunt for them versus shying away from them? And then where'd you find people to play and, where do you start? You have something like a bedroom, whatever, where do you start from there?
So I think honestly it doesn't matter, just get humans, anyone who's not yourself. There's an interesting thought experiment, actually, I'll get back to the first part, but I think this is interesting. I was talking to someone recently, I think it was probably one of the Snapster folks, they're awesome, these guys.
But our experiment was, doesn't matter who is the person who playtests the very first version, right? And okay, we're just talking about this and I threw this thought experiment that I've been thinking a lot more since basically, what if you had clones of Lizzie? I'm not talking about just removing the bias, right? Because you can say, well, you get someone else, someone else who is not gonna be biased. Or we need the wisdom of the hordes or more people. But what if you remove the element of someone else's perspective, you just get like 100 Lizzie clones. And the question is, is the real Lizzie well equipped to provide judgment on something Lizzie is creating compared to a clone of Lizzie? They're clones, right? In theory, it shouldn't matter. And I really feel like it doesn't matter. I feel like even if you found people that were exactly like you, ideally don't just find people that were in your audience.
But what I'm trying to make is that even if you were to ask your own self, what do I think of this? If you're able to associate fully, I think you get much more objective feedback because by definition, you're just tied to it. It's your baby, you're building it. But I think even if you're able to somehow shut off that bearing process, I think there's still something about the mind in two states.
The mind is either in a creative brainstorming, critical thinking about all the different perspective things or it's in building execution. And so if you have this idea and you're trying to make it real with coding or whatever, you just really think about how do I get from like this thing to something very deterministic and well defined, which is someone who's looking at it with specialized even if it's yourself or a clone of yourself Is the thing about the opposite which is basically what is this? Why isn't it not X. Oh, I don't like how it reminds me of what you know, all these different things.
And so I think, yeah, to answer that whole question, just start somewhere. That's not yourself, even just your family, friends, whatever, and get to actual strangers as quickly as possible.
Okay. So first question, let's say I can find those people. How do I think about the process in a way as to get myself to find more leading indicators that are actually insightful and then get the most up to date. Let me know if I'm messing up the questions.
So this is something I think, intentionally, we did well with this process and hope to do it with other games as well, or game modes. When you think about what is the boundaries of a prototype, you asked earlier, when you know when it's done, when it's good, and saying all these philosophical things, but I think at some point, pragmatically, you have to say, okay, this is what we're shipping, and then it's first version, first release.
Sami Ramly: So I think no matter what school of thought people want to follow to just define that first version, I encourage this from my own experience, that also includes a way that makes it very easy for folks trying this, to be able to just express whatever they try with someone else or share it with someone or send it to a friend. And that's a very deliberate product decision, right? Because it's very easy to say let's first try the mechanic or let's first come up with a theme. Same with board games, you can tell it with themes or mechanics. So let's start with whatever. As opposed to board games, you play a game, you can't just invite a friend or share results with a friend or whatever with digital stuff.
And these days, everything we have is a platform. It's so much easier to just add an element of getting someone else to also try it. And I think, deliberately thinking through this from the very early prototype is important and then here's why. But it can also backfire, if you like to do something that's like really not enjoyed at all. And then you just try to go out of the bank. I'm not saying this. I'm just saying, even with the 1st cohort of users is just getting some of that. I think because if someone tried your game, enjoyed it enough, but just doesn't want to break your heart, like, okay, yeah, sure. That was fun. Even if they're a stranger, if they're also going out of their way to send it to a friend and they're playing with someone else, even if they can't play together, like just single player, I think that's an actual leading indicator.
And so then you can get a better sense earlier on versus waiting six years and no one likes yourgame. So I would encourage people to just spend a bit more time thinking, okay, like what is that sharing process or like social interaction process and just. It's just put in the time to put it in, even if it's just very janky at the beginning.
Lizzie Mintus: And how did your game go so viral? What do you attribute that to?
Sami Ramly: Well, I think to be honest, through the process and what I just described with that, if someone organically in the game itself can just share the results with a friend and it has a link to go back to the game. You can't manufacture word of mouth, but you can definitely fuel it or hurdle it. You can just be like, okay, you guys want to talk about this game, but you can't. Well, that sucks. Why do you want to actually share this? And then here's the easiest way to do it.
And obviously we're very far from what we would want to do to get people to have a smooth way to invite their friends, have leaderboards, social kind of co-location or all sorts of ways you can think about for having more of that collaborative element and competitive element. But I think there's a starting point with this. That's one thing I think we can do intentionally.
The other part is I mentioned at the beginning, starting with that sculpting design process, where you think, okay, what is like the actual core, even if it's like stupidly simple, will resonate with enough people and then really answer the main problem here, which is like, how do you make chess, interesting and turn based strategy games and like things that are like brainy to people who would definitely enjoy them. They just wouldn't think of themselves as like that category. I think the same way. Zynga wanted to do like games people don't even sell as gamers. I think that's an insight. I think there's a similar insight with things that are more strategy games and that genre and puzzle games where most people just have a knee jerk reaction to them because of whatever first try they had with them.
And actually there's something almost universal about the nice feeling when you try something and you have five minutes to figure it out, like 10 minutes, whatever. And it makes you feel good. It's like, Oh, that was nice. And you can move on with your day. You can be like a hedge fund manager. It'd be a very busy person. Lizzie is doing all this excellent stuff, recruiting and leading conferences.
Lizzie Mintus: Air ballooning.
Sami Ramly: Yeah. And you might still do that. And to be fair, I think we still are training a lot on this. For example, like there's a daily puzzle. So there are much better ways we could do around the difficulty ramp within a week. People can expect like if I come in on like X day, I'm going to get the harder one. The first time experience when you come in, like getting something where you kind of tip your toes and then you get into the other ones. And so there's a lot of things to be done there, but I think that definitely helps as well.
Lizzie Mintus: You mentioned Zynga and you're backed by the Zynga, head of AI.
Sami Ramly: Oh, no. Actually, Mark, the founder. Yeah.
Lizzie Mintus: The founder. Okay. Even better. I would love a backstory on two questions. How did you decide you needed to raise money? What is that point? And then, how did you come across the founder of Zynga?
Sami Ramly: Well, okay. I think, first of all, we're extremely grateful. I can't say it enough. I think they're awesome. And then they're all amazing. Honestly, there's obviously the A16z like Speedrun folks. There's Stef who is the head of AI at Roblox, amazing. Patrick Wyatt, he had worked on, very early, Warcraft, Starcraft, Diablo strategy games expert. You know AJ from Snapster, Eric who started Opendoor. Anyway, basically there's a whole group of people who are just absolutely amazing. I feel very grateful and the whole team is very excited about this.
These are very awesome folks who have built great companies and great products. But I think it's also that they're honestly, world experts in a particular intersection of fields that is very relevant to what we're trying to build. We didn't get a chance to talk much about the blitz mode and AI and all the things we think about longer term, but I think having people who are experts in strategy games and also AI and thinking about use of game and tech, get games accessible for everyone, I think it's very powerful. Especially when you start thinking about also getting the tools that we use and we'll use other games to allow the player base to also create themselves, the creators as well. I think there's a lot of amazing things to be done there.
So now let me tackle the part about investment. I think there's many ways people can think about any product not just in the game industry, but let's just talk about games. I think people say, okay I want to try to build a game and it could be like just a board game You know a game video game whatever and also you can think about okay I'm trying to build a company and then the reason this makes sense is because we'll be able to bring to the world a lot of what makes this first game super fun, but in a much bigger vision.
And then eventually the process and tech that we're using to build this game, we know that like it puts in a great spot to be able to come up with great games in the future and game modes but also to be able to empower others, whether it's in our own player community, the UGC content, or honestly just other creators and devs long term to benefit from it as a platform I think there's a lot of things to be said there.
So if you don't mind, I'll just do this quick segue to talk about how I think about AI's role.
Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, please.
Sami Ramly: So I was talking a lot about bottom up and very practical, literally wooden chess boards. Let me talk about something a bit more like the longer term vision. I'll tell you the kind of how we're building toward this and what our strong opinions are toward it. So I think like longer term there is, there's been a lot of basically really interesting approaches and industry people trying to take chunks or Lego pieces and like the game dev cycle. And say, okay, where could something like AI automation improve that process? And I think that's awesome. A lot of them are my friends. I try to use them as tools, like people want to partner with amazing people.
For example, you can take like textures and I can text to textures or text to voice, or three models, animation, shaders, whatever. Insert something and then you can think about how AI or some other technology can actually help you build that ingredient better. And I think this is great, right?
But I think the interesting part there is like the same way that any other technological shift has happened in the past, over time, thankfully, I mean, hopefully this happens. But each of these ingredients will get improved enough that it kind of raises the baseline. If you're creating a feature length movie today, you're probably not going to do it in black and white, unless you're just trying to send a message specifically.
But it's almost like table stakes, right? And I think that kind of the industry rises. And I think there's a lot of interesting things that happen there where you can argue, okay, does this mean that there's a very interesting platform shift happening, and then be part of that, the first non silence movies or whatnot. Or is it more kind of like a situation where you have, remember those mini CDs, whatever they called. Not a CD, the one that is smaller. They probably have two, three years to shine. And then we just moved on to something else, right? And so I think there's something there about, what is it that's gonna be, like, a new baseline?
And then the question becomes, is the way we actually make games gonna be different even from a recipe perspective, if you think about ingredients and recipe? And I do think that, again, as I said, all these ingredients need to also improve. That's great. But whether they improve today or not, or whether you have a hodgepodge of things that are automated and things that are not, can you actually innovate on the game design process and come up with new mechanics?
Let's say on this podcast, you can say, Hey, let's come up with a chess variant where pawns move sideways. Is it fun? I don't know, right? Let's just try to iterate a lot. And so the question is, like, how do you get a better recipe to iterate faster and be able to get learnings and do something where you can have automation helping you with the game design process.
And so the insight that I came across when I was building Echo Chess, and especially, like, the Blitz mode of it, which is basically this real time generated mode, is that at least if you start with a certain category of games, and you can be a little bit aware of where you start, and then you can expand naturally to other categories of games, other categories of game start is basically what you could do is like you can have a kind of a copilot of some sort that actually can learn to recognize certain game states and give you input on.
So there's something very concretely with Echo Chess, going back to a very long term vision to Earth, right? Okay, with Echo Chess right now, like what happens when you're playing this Tetris like mode? Basically. you're able to regenerate a bunch of different board states. And if you think about levels of any game or like maps, mods, whatever, level is just like a special case of a game state, where it's just like the starting game state, right? But actually every single move we can do the same thing. And so you take a certain level of starting points, right?
Like in theory, if you had a model or a process, with AI or other technologies that is able to look at those and be like, Hmm, It looks like a solvable state. This doesn't look like a solvable state. The same way you're able to recognize cats and dogs and whatever. And then what you're able to do is, when you see enough of them, now you're able to just regenerate and then get interesting scoring around, okay, what do these states mean for what I'm trying to measure for the game? And so you're able to actually do this. And I fully decoupled away from, what are the actual names? It's irrelevant. It's a process that actually is generalizable. And I think, especially if you start with deterministic, perfect information games. It doesn't matter if it's like a Sudoku, like a maze, a puzzle, or any kind of strategy game map. But basically, the insight is the same.
And if you like non deterministic, non perfect information games, you can do a similar process with expected values and so on. But basically, my point is that, even like just giving you a glimpse of like the first superficial element is that we're able to have someone like a sidekick was able to look at these states, not just by the starting level, as I mentioned, as you're going through a game and then give you feedback in real time on how is this state likely to evolve.
And so when you come to this mode, it's like a very early game mode, just clearing the boards. We are able to do this actually at speed where you're able to, before you even serve something to the player, have a point of view as a good state to show or not, and adjust accordingly. You might just throw away some pregens and then adjust other ones.
And then on the creation side, I think this is interesting, but we use some of this stuff internally as well. As you're coming up with those humanly created, like this is the one puzzle is going to go for the world or whatever, it helps you surmount the blank canvas problem. If you just start with something, it's kind of like a seated state. I do feel like, by the way, for daily things, there is value in having someone try to tickle your brain or trick you behind the game. You're like, yeah, like there's someone trying to give me a message as a human. But you can do most of the leg work with having seats. And more importantly, if you're in a process, you're able to surface it to your own player base for creating their own maps, as well as user creators to come up with interesting modes and so on.
So anyway, I don't know if that was too high level, but I hope it gives you an idea of how a process that has seen enough of certain game states can be very helpful as a compiler in the creation process. And I think that's independent or in addition to whatever innovations happen on ingredients, some sense of a game does and arguably probably beyond just games, how people think about, what are the things that we need is Lego pieces and what is the Lego making process?
Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. Did you have most of this concept yourself or with the help of, I know you have some amazing investors and advisors that have so much experience. Do they tickle your brain and push you to new places like this?
Sami Ramly: Oh, of course.
Lizzie Mintus: I'm going to use it. Yeah.
Sami Ramly: Yeah. Please use it. I don't even know where I heard this term when you just came up now, but please use it. Obviously, these things takes a village. I think you said it very well at the beginning of this podcast, as you said, ideas are everywhere, almost like they're cheap. And people can come up with many ideas. And when does the idea actually shape itself? So I think like that insight or any other insight, you have to always couple it with like right timing for things. If someone had mentioned the same answer like 100 years ago, like a cool story, what can I do about it? Not much because like the tech wasn't there.
And I think it's important to kind of think through others, just like absolute terms, your game, but things you're building as a game or a company, whatever as part of like the underlying platform shift that's happening and what are the things that actually are enabled by this? What are the things that are actually disabled by this? And I think like you brought up the thing earlier, I think it's a great example, this part of mobile and social as like a really good platform. I'm not giving enough credit to all the amazing things they've done, but I think one is going to be done really, really well, in addition to a gazillion, you know, you have to do so many things right. And it takes a lot and you have to concentrate. But I think that the underlying insight, which I think was brilliant that they had, was like, basically if I want to play a multiplayer game, right.
And you have to go back in time, right? Like pre Facebook and such, but they want to play a game. I have to think of, okay, I have a game that I'm building and then I have to find my friends and I go get my friends and I'm buying them and there's two things I'm doing that are just very antithetical. And then I have to build my social graph for this game and they're like, what if the social graph is figured out, right? There's a social platform and I can bring the game and then the same thing for mobile people. So I think that's the second. Like a brilliant insight, but on its own, it's not enough. And you need to iterate so much. And the thing that's fantastic as an example, they iterate like ruthlessly, constant experiment. And they keep doing a lot of these things. And they've brought on amazing talent over the years and built up like an institution. But I think the insight alone is never enough.
And by the way, like the devil's in the details, like whatever I just described, you just said, okay, like you're assuming probably, or we were both assuming that this process is going to be bulletproof as an AI. But also things need to iterate on and that you can make it better and so on.
So I'll just wrap it up with this one thought on AI. I think, like anything else, it's kind of like a ladder. You're trying to reach a certain state with your company, and each step builds on the next to help you achieve that.
There's probably at least like a hundred rungs and the best you can do with a tiny company is worry about, how do we get to the next three, four rungs and ladder with a very good site on where we are trying to head? And is this the right ladder to climb?
But if you start solving like 98 to 100 at day one, it's not just useless, but also it's the wrong thing to do. You've bypassed other critical steps. Is the first version of a prototype meant to solve all the problems ever? Of course not. You get to a point where actually, it validates the use case, but also you get something to your players that actually they can enjoy. And then you get the luxury of worrying about the next song and then so on.
And so I think that's a mental model from a company culture perspective I'm trying to instill as we grow further, where like, how do we actually do build these rungs, but build them in a way that actually gets us to have the luxury to think about the next ones while seeing them versus the other way around.
Lizzie Mintus: Having a business is so fun. I like it.
Okay, so you've raised money. You have a viral game. What are your plans? Where is your rung? Maybe not rung 100. Where do you want to be in five years? I don't know how far that is up.
Sami Ramly: Yeah, definitely. I think we're happy with the early success with obviously Echo Chess and the puzzle mechanic. There is a ton more to be done with that first underlying take on that medium, if you want, and also other games and longer term, like the platform I'm describing. But specifically specifically when we talk about Echo Chess, even in the short term, and I can't share a lot of specifics, but what I will share for sure is, Remember at the beginning I was saying, there is a point of view you can have on, like, you start with a strategy game, and then you walk toward a puzzle game, or you start with a puzzle game, and you walk toward a strategy game.
And I think a strategy game is, I mean, they're both amazing. Obviously, we believe in this, right? But I think a strategy game is much more interesting because now you have the element of how other humans also are interacting with your decisions. And I think that adds a whole lot of complexity in that.
And I think, interestingly, if you start, this is, again, like a puzzle game. Highly opinionated perspective here. So maybe people are like, they are wrong. That's fine.
Lizzie Mintus: That's okay. People are cranky no matter what you do.
Sami Ramly: It's fair. It's fair. There's good arguments on both sides. I think that the beliefs that I have at this point in time, at least, is that You can add some of the elements that you don't bring other players or other humans into experience.
This is a kind of layer on its own. Like, hey, let's add multiplayer on something or whatever. And I think on its own, it has interesting meta and that's whatever. But if you just add it on its own or something that doesn't have a foundation or basis, I think it's a false plot, especially nowadays.
That's why my point of view was like, let's start with a puzzle game where you just really nail, even like the single player experience where people can have real fun and value. Obviously it's still early. We have something that people like and people do really like, they actually really love and stick around for a while. That's great. And God knows so many ways we can do this to actually just get out in the world better. But I think even before thinking from like, what is it that we're building? I think we're in a good spot where we've nailed this first. And then we can think about the strategy game element, which I'm excited about a lot, of course.
Lizzie Mintus: You're a classic CEO. You're infectious with your excitement. So I love that. I have one last question for you. If I know you have, I know you have so much advice and so much insight from many different people that you mentioned.
Congrats on getting into Speedrun. That's awesome. But so far, what is the biggest aha moment you've had and who helped you get there?
And I know business is aha moments all the time, but do you have one that you feel like really changed the course of your career, thought process, or game itself?
Sami Ramly: Yeah, I think I, I don't know how to link back exact things, but I'm going to be biased. But I think it's two things I can think of. I think definitely a game that influenced me is, Heroes of Might and Magic, as I mentioned. Love this game. Everyone's been involved in, even honestly, like the music composer, like beautiful. I still have these Spotify playlists to listen to them.
On a different note though, I think there's an awesome game designer, we probably have him somewhere here, Vlado, this guy. Vlado, I don't know if you ever played any of his board games. I haven't met him, so maybe someday I'll meet him, if he's into this, great, it'll be cool. He's in Czech Republic, I think. Awesome guy. Obviously I don't know anything about him as a human, but his work is amazing.
I'll tell you why I think his work is great. He has such range.
So he's built games like Codenames. It's just a party game, a casual game. Great. Also built games like Mage Knight, which probably requires like three hours of explanation and set up time. And then 15 hours is a game session. That's a very deep strategy game. And like in other games, like Tash Kalar, it has an abstract strategy, but also that kind of summoning and card battling mechanic. Anyway, this guy is a prolific board game designer and has done so many different ranges of elements of strategy games.
And I think the nice thing that he does that all of us in the video game industry could actually learn from, and probably being constrained by the board game medium gives you also certain nudges. But I think one thing that he does really well is, he thinks, okay, am I building a game for a certain mechanic? And then adding themes later or building a game for the theme and adding mechanics later. People have a sci fi game and then figure out what is there. And I think he does an excellent job with building mechanics that are core to that team. And they still feel like they can stand on their own a lot but you feel really immersed in that world. And as I mentioned the guy just creates it from Codenames to like Mage Knight. It's just fascinating.
So yeah, someone who loves tournament strategy games, like board games, I think Vlado is great. Hopefully I'll meet him someday. Hopefully he's also a nice guy.
Lizzie Mintus: I think we'll send him this podcast and maybe he'll invite you to his house for dinner or something. Yeah, just reach out. You never know who will get back to you. It's pretty interesting.
We've been talking to Sami Ramly, who's the founder of Echo Chunk AI. Sami, where can people go to play your game, work for you, contact you, learn more about you?
Sami Ramly: Yeah, I mean you wanna try the game. Just go to echochess.com. You can also go to our website, the company Echo Chunk, reach out to us at any point. Find the game there. Also, if you wanna just email me directly, that's totally fine. It's just sami@echochess.com.
Lizzie Mintus: Thank you.
Sami Ramly: Awesome.
Thank you so much Lizzie. That was a lot of fun.
Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. To catch all the latest from Here's Waldo, you can follow us on LinkedIn. Be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. We'll see you next time.
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