Zoe Curnoe is the founder and executive coach at Lumina Leadership, a boutique executive coaching and training firm. With over 20 years of leadership experience at companies like Electronic Arts, Riot Games, The Coalition (an Xbox studio), and co-founding Timbre Games, Zoe specializes in helping leaders navigate complex challenges and drive meaningful change.

In this episode, Zoe shares lessons learned from burnout while leading Gears of War 4 at The Coalition and how coaching helped her build self-awareness. She discusses current leadership trends in high-pressure environments, the importance of feedback, and staying aligned with company values. Tune in for advice on finding the right coach, leading with empathy, and managing crises while staying true to your values.

Here’s a glimpse of what you’ll learn: 

• How burnout can silently affect leadership and the importance of recognizing it before it impacts your team.
• Why regular "housekeeping" checks are essential to prevent toxic behaviors like gossip and misalignment.
• How to deliver feedback that is not only clear, kind, and empathetic but also helps the recipient understand how it will foster their growth and development.

Resources Mentioned in this episode

• Here’s Waldo Recruiting
• Lizzie Mintus on LinkedIn
• Zoe Curnoe on Linkedin
• Lumina Leadership
  

Episode Transcript

Welcome to the Here's Waldo Podcast, where we sit down with top visionaries and creatives in the video game industry. Together we'll unravel their journeys and learn more about the path they're forging ahead. Now, let's get started with the show. 

Lizzie Mintus: Hi, I'm Lizzie Mintus. I am the founder and CEO of Here's Waldo Recruiting, and this is the Here's Waldo Podcast. In every episode, we dive deep into conversations with creatives, founders, and execs about their journey. You can expect to hear valuable lessons and get a glimpse into the future of the industry. This episode is brought to you by Here's Waldo Recruiting. We are a boutique recruitment firm that focuses on games and tech, and values quality over quantity, transparency, communication, and diversity. 

Before introducing today's guest, I want to give a thank you to Amir Satvat, the hero of the video game industry and his community. That's how Zoe and I ended up connecting. If you know anybody looking for a job with questions about the industry, have them look at Amir's community, it's amazing. There's every resource there.

Today, we have Zoe Curnoe with us. Zoe is a 20 year veteran of the video game industry and founder. She has worked as a production and operations leader at studios like Electronic Arts, Riot Games, The Coalition, which is an Xbox studio, and she was most recently co-founder of Timbre Games. In 2024, she started Lumina Leadership, which is a boutique executive leadership coaching and training firm. 

Let's begin. I'm glad we can make this work. Thanks, Zoe. 

Zoe Curnoe: I'm so excited. We finally get to talk.

Lizzie Mintus: Can you please share a little bit more about what Lumina Leadership is? 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. Maybe I'll go back and talk about just where coaching entered my life, which was in around 2010-ish, I was working at EA and someone mentioned to me, do you have a coach? And I was like, Oh, what's that? I didn't even know.

I think I knew the term. I think a lot of people think like, Oh, it's Tony Robbins, right? And they're kind of like, Ooh, or they're excited about it. They're like, are you going to make me do power poses? And so I got a coach back then, Susan Washington- shout out to Susan. 

And I think that is actually what hooked me. I was like, Oh, I would love to do this for other people. And so then as a leader, I started bringing it into my day to day. And when I had direct reports and really changing from being that manager that tells everyone what to do, which is often what you think when you become a manager, to actually coaching people to sort of open their toolboxes and be like, Oh, I have this inside me, you know, to figure this out.

And so just all throughout the years, I've always had a coach on and off. And then during the pandemic, I think for a lot of us, you know, we went work from home and it just gave you all this extra time because you weren't socializing. I think I learned to knit during the pandemic as well. And I went, I'm finally going to get actual training in this. So I'm going to go to a recognized school and get the amount of hours that is actually going to train me to be a coach. 

And so I went to CTI, the Coaches Training Institute, and they do a specific style of coaching that's called coactive coaching, which really spoke to me. And so I did that over six months while I was still at the Coalition. And taking that course, I was chuckling to myself a little bit thinking about this, which was- I was really selling it to myself, like, this is going to make me a better leader at the Coalition. 

Zoe Curnoe: But I think it really inside, it was pushing me to go and do the thing I really wanted to do, which was, I still love making video games. I don't think I'll ever stop. I still consult and advise in that space. But it was like every day, coaching people and helping them be better leaders is what I love. It's really what I love doing. I'm energized by it. 

And so, we had already shipped gears five by then. We shipped DLC while I was finishing those hours in the training. Then we started Timbre, did that for two years. And then, I'm 53. So I was heading into my mid fifties and was like, I think the next phase, I'm ready for it. Like it's time. You know, it's time to do this. And I think also just with this year, I know a lot of people said to me, are you really starting a business this year? Like in 2024? And I was like, yeah, I am because, we need it. Like these leaders need support and I see a lot of them struggling and suffering kind of in silence and thinking that they have to go through it alone and they have to make those hard decisions alone and I want to be their partner and help them through it and help them be brave and courageous in such a scary time.

Lizzie Mintus: It is a scary time and needed more than ever. Many of the top businesses start in a downturn. 

Zoe Curnoe: Right. Exactly. I always used to joke, you know, when you hire all these people at these really large companies, you're kind of just training them to go and run their own companies anyways. So that's okay. 

Lizzie Mintus: So you said that the coaching program you did was coactive leadership. What did you like about this program? 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah, the school is called the Coaches Training Institute, so CTI. They do a coactive leadership program. I actually haven't taken that, but I took just their coactive coaching training program, which was directed to change a little bit now. But when I took it, it was a little bit more directed towards life coaching, which is helping people transform kind of in their daily lives. But that style of coaching works for anyone. And it's been around for a very, very long time. And it's part of why I took that program. 

There's always a joke with them, like, when you meet a coactive coach, you kind of know, because they're a little bit different. One of the things that they say is you're always dancing in the moment with your client. And so your client is kind of going through something and you have to sort of meet them there and help pull them through that moment rather than directive and, you know, kind of advising them as to what's happening, but you're really listening for those things of where they're at. You're helping pull them through that experience. 

Lizzie Mintus: I like that, more of a partnership. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. I sometimes described it as a co-pilot. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. Okay. Well, I mean, everybody needs a co-pilot. I remember being at this conference and there was this guy who owned most of the Verizon stores. Just the super, energetic, kind of just you want to be around him, guy. Then he brought his coach on and he was talking about his coach and I had also never thought about having a coach. It was just not ever something that had occurred to me. 

Are you coaching a specific type of leader? Are you coaching a studio leader? Are you coaching a technical leader? Are you coaching a mid level?

Zoe Curnoe: All of the above. Yeah, all of the above. Right now, most of my individual clients are in the more like lead, senior manager sort of principle space, heading a little higher. I have a couple of studio founders as well, who are very experienced in the industry, but really starting as entrepreneurs for the first time.

But what I really love to do the most is actually to partner with an organization and offer coaching and leadership coaching to a larger group of leaders within that organization, because you often can open-act more change and more cultural impact at that leadership level when we have more than just 1 person in an organization.

I love coaching individuals. I will always reserve time in my calendar for it. I have some new people and I'm kicking off next week. And I was looking at it today. I'm so excited to figure out what's happening. So I think those are really exciting and I always need to make time for them. But I really do think that at that organizational level is where you can really have that impact. 

Lizzie Mintus: That makes sense. What has your coaching experience been? You said you started out with a coach and now you have this coaching leadership program, but what are the different sorts of coaches in your experience and how do you know who's right for you?

Zoe Curnoe: That is a great question. I remember actually when we first started talking about this at the GamesBeat Summit, you were like, Oh yeah, I have a business coach and I have this in it, and it is really important to find those coaches that speak to you, their style of coaching works for you as well.

I'm on my third coach that I've had in, how long in 15 years. My current coach, I met her. She was one of my instructors at CTI and my training and I just really liked her style. I think there is a lot of affinity there for me because she's Dutch, actually, and I find that she's very direct in a very caring and empathetic way. And I need that. I know that I'm a little slippery and I can get away with things with people. I can convince them that maybe that thing they think isn't the thing. I know that about myself. And she'll just turn her head. And so I kind of knew that would be a good connection. 

And then, the other coach I've had in between with someone that actually my manager, Christy Ray at the Coalition hired for me to help me work through some struggles I was having as a leader, as I was moving up in the organization. Her name was Jennifer Pascoe. And she really ignited the fire in me of pursuing coaching. She'd been coaching leaders at Xbox for years. And she just had this way about her of, I'm not going to say pushing, but like motivating you in a way to move through the problems you were facing and really visualizing what kind of leader you want to be? 

If people are walking down the hallway at the studio, what do you want them to be saying about you? And so she really got me to start thinking about that. And then the behaviors and actions that would. Lead to the positive outcomes that I was looking for. 

Lizzie Mintus: I like that, being intentional. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. And then you asked how to find a coach. It's actually a little bit challenging to find them, but there are a lot on LinkedIn. So you can just do one of those searches for an executive coach. And people get confused by the term executive coach. It doesn't mean you only coach executives. It means that you're coaching people kind of in that leadership space. It's all-encompassing. So just remember that. 

And also, interview them. Literally try them out. I tried out, even though I knew I wanted the coach I have right now, cause she had been my instructor, I interviewed three coaches before I picked her. Often they'll do a free 30 or 45 minute session with you. If you want them to do some coaching, you can ask them for that. And you can sort of see if it fits with what you are looking for and how it works for you. And sometimes, you know, you have to be a little bit careful. 

I would also look at their training or look at their experience. Are they from the field that you are in? I don't think they always have to be. There's a very divisive opinion in the coaching community that anyone can coach anyone. I don't totally believe that. I think that having some understanding of a person's background and industry helps. 

My coach doesn't come from games, but she has an extensive background in operational management. And so it had a lot of crossover for me. So sometimes when I talk about things, I don't have to explain too much because we can get into it very quickly. And I find that quite helpful. And I do find lately people I've been talking to, certainly in the HR or actually talent space who are helping look for coaches for organizations, they say, Oh, I'm so glad to talk to you. There's so few coaches with gaming experience. There's not a lot of us right now. 

I've been, lately, meeting more and more people and I'm hoping there are more of them. My goal with Lumina, I'm hoping is to become a boutique coaching firm that has multiple coaches who we can deploy out in groups to companies as well to give people some choice as to who their coach is and then create multiple programs and help multiple studios at once, which my capacity is limited now by my time. I can't deal with too many studios at once. I just don't have the capacity to coach that many people, but that's my dream and goal for Illumina, is that we can have more of an impact in this industry and help it through honestly, one of the hardest times it's ever been through right now. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, it's a very hard time. It's hard to go on LinkedIn. How do you feel like game industry coaching specifically is going to be different from traditional coaching? 

Zoe Curnoe: Good question. Yeah. So I think in that space, I think just having an understanding of how challenging those different disciplines are when they try to collaborate, it's so hard because different personalities as well, and that's common in the work world, but those different disciplines and combining creative with technology, it's just the hardest thing in the world. You know, it's really, really challenging. And then, of course, the costs as well as they go up and as just looking at what that looks like, you're maybe you're working remotely, but then trying to collaborate across cultures, countries, technologies, and then you add in all the things that most people deal with- it's really, really difficult. And I think having a core understanding of that is really helpful for people to help give them some new tools to work with and different perspectives. 

Lizzie Mintus: And empathize and understand. Yeah, you're right. So much cross-collaboration. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. Like in, you know, in film and television, not VFX, but film and television, you're out there. You're shooting your movie, you're editing it. There's technology, but it's not holding you up or preventing you from progressing or there isn't someone on the technology side that has their own goals and agenda that might not fit with the creative side. And that stuff comes up in games all the time. And so how to navigate those things, it's incredibly complex, and can be incredibly stressful as well.

Lizzie Mintus: What are some of the common problems that you see game leaders facing? There's so many, 

but are there pockets you would put them in what's recurring kind of right now. 

Zoe Curnoe: Right now. Yeah. I mean, the biggest one is sustainability. Like, how do I save my business? Which is kind of heartbreaking, but that is the biggest one. Like, what do I do right now to make sure I can pay people tomorrow? And what am I doing in the next year to make sure my business still exists? And how am I going to navigate this in a way that is human and empathetic? But also that this business survives. So the rest of the people here still have jobs as well. And it is such a conflicting, challenging thing to go through. That's the biggest one I think right now. 

Certainly the political climate in the US is a big topic right now. In Canada, it is because the US is our biggest trading partner. So there are things that are going to affect us. A lot of people are talking about that right now.

And then the big one for individuals, I'm going to say that's like at the studio leadership level, say for like the one layer down from that, our people are just really unstable right now. And they've kind of, I'm going to say, run out of steam is what I'm thinking- like the word that's coming to mind. 

The pandemic was hard enough. And it piled on top of everyone. And then we came out of it and affordability got really difficult, and inflation. And then that seemed to get better, and then the downturn happened. And so I think people are a little worn out, a little bit tired and a little bit frustrated. And so it seems like there's almost more conflict happening than even used to because people are just more on edge. 

It keeps piling on. And so then you're resilient. I don't want a training session on resilience. I've been dealing with resilience for five years. So it's changing the language, I think, around some of that. 

Lizzie Mintus: People are also probably feeling stuck, right? They're stuck at their company. They don't have confidence and they're making a choice between bad and worse, which is being unemployed. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yes. Whereas in the past, I think in games, we've all done this, you could be like, I'm not happy at work. I'm going to take a few months off. I'm going to quit my job. I don't have another job. I'll find one. That is not the case right now, right? You may not find one for a year or more. And so it's not that same flexibility. So it's really helping people navigate that and maybe have slightly harder conversations with their managers and leaders and saying, how do we figure this out together? How do we help each other through this instead of just tapping out and leaving but really enacting some of that change inside the organization? 

Lizzie Mintus: Really hard. 

Zoe Curnoe: It's very hard. Yeah, absolutely. I think it can be done though. I have hope. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. Someone told me yesterday, you're never as good as you think you are when things are going really well, and you're never as bad as you think you are when things are going horribly. And I thought that was profound. You know, when things are going well, you're like, yeah, I got this. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. You're like, I'm indispensable. 

Lizzie Mintus: Totally. And then when it's bad, everyone feels so bad about themselves. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. They're like, I'm to blame for everything. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that's actually, that's a great example. Like I literally, I'm like, Ooh, I'd love to coach that person because being self aware and knowing what place you play in that grander scheme of your studio, your project, your company is so important. And it kind of feeds back into the vision stuff to you. 

Something I also love doing is helping those leaders by asking, Well, what is your company's vision and what are the values that you're using to make decisions right now? And does everyone at your company know what that is- on your team, on your project? Because often when we're in these stages of crisis, we kind of forget to do the housekeeping, like the leadership housekeepers, like, you know, everyone's got to clean the toilet once a week. Like you gotta do that. 

So don't let those things drop because you're in crisis. And I know that's so hard for a leader to hear because they're like, seriously, I have to do more than I'm already doing. I'm going to say you have to do more. I think you have to just do it a bit smarter and a bit more strategically and really look at those priorities of like, okay. What am I doing right now? Does everyone know where we're going? Does everyone know what's happening? And is that super clear? 

Lizzie Mintus: Yes. It is more work, but then eventually it is less work. I have a conversation with people to help with hiring. Yeah. You have to define your values and what you're looking for, and your team has to be aligned, and you need to make a concrete process. If you don't, you can do it without, but you're not gonna get the same result. 

Zoe Curnoe: Well, your work will be harder, right? Yeah. Like you actually will have less time. And you'll be more stressed, your team will be stressed, and then no one is working as efficiently as they should be, because you know what starts to happen is they fill in the blanks. And then the gossip starts and then the toxicity leaks out. And then everyone will start making decisions or moving forward in ways that are maybe not what you want. 

Lizzie Mintus: Not in alignment. Yeah. 

Zoe Curnoe: And then you're like, Oh no, I have to course correct. Oh my gosh. I've just been course correcting this thing all week. If those things had been established from the beginning and you were doing little health checks all the way along, it really frees up your time. 

Being that forward looking leader is so important. It's like near term, far term, near term, far term, and you're always doing that, that thing. And that's a skill. It's a muscle that you have to keep using. Well, actually I've never thought of that metaphor before, but I like it. 

Lizzie Mintus: It's harder when the short term is on fire. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yes. Absolutely. 

Lizzie Mintus: I imagine a lot of your coaching is about helping people be self-aware and helping people understand their blind spots and what they don't know and what they can work on in a way that maybe they can discover it themselves. Can you give an example, either personally or through your work, about a time a blind spot led to a better outcome? 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah, absolutely. Actually, I have a very vulnerable one. I'll share for you from Xbox, but I put it in talks that I give and I talk about it a lot because I feel that being vulnerable as a leader and admitting when you get something really wrong is really important. 

So it's actually when my manager at Xbox actually got me a coach cause she was like, need a coach to help you through this. I'll just talk about that for one second, which for me was a really eye-opening moment of like, Oh, you're an incredibly experienced manager. And you know that you need to bring in an expert, like a coach to help me with this thing. You don't think that you can solve all of the things your director points out. That was like a light bulb moment. 

But it was because at the end of Gears of War 4, so I was the production director for the campaign on that project, and at the end of it, there was a review process, 360 process, and I found out that some of my key peers, two of them who I had an immense amount of respect for and considered my friends didn't trust me anymore. Because at the end of Gears 4, I was so burnt out. During the finaling of that project, I was so singly focused on shipping that game that I was in this complete state of burnout and I didn't even know. 

And when you're in that state of burnout and you don't feel supported, you lash out at people and you start blaming people for where you are. And you get that, there's cycles of burnout, which is, you know, you're tired and you kind of become cynical. At the very bottom of that burnout cycle, you become very blamey, is the word I guess I can think of towards other people rather than seeing what you're contributing to the situation yourself. And then you're in fight and flight. 100 percent of the time and that had happened to me and I was still there and I didn't even know I was still there. So we were in pre-production on Gears 5 and I hadn't come out of it. 

But to get that feedback, I remember the day we had the conversation, I drove home and I cried. And I was angry and I was like, what, what's happening? This is terrible. And then I was like, that's just not who I am. And then I sat there and sat in it, in my stuff. And was like, wow, I need to change. This is terrible. It's not who I am. And I knew that wasn't who I was as a leader. It's just never been me. But for that period of time, that's who I'd become. And that's when I met Jennifer Pascoe and she was phenomenal. 

Lizzie Mintus: Did you get the feedback and then did your manager deliver the feedback to you? 

Zoe Curnoe: Yes. In that situation? Yeah. Yeah. In that situation, the 360 was done with my manager as a part of a review process. And then Jennifer and I worked on it together. And so we kicked it off with her. I shared my review with her and we went over it and talked about it. So she really pulled out of me like, well, when does this behavior happen? Like, what are your triggers? We worked for a long time on values and got really clear on what my values are.

And she started to show me that those moments of distress that I was experiencing, that behavior was coming out when I felt that my values were being threatened. So when there was this value mismatch. Then I was being extra hard on people because I was blaming them for them to not honoring my values, even though it wasn't that person. It was the situation.

And being really clear on your own personal values is so important in life. And so many people just never have that conversation. And I think at that point in my life, I assumed that I really knew what they were. I had done some previous work in that space. But I wasn't really clear on how they were affecting my day-to-day.

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. It helps you with work, but also with life. It's a lot like parenting. 

Zoe Curnoe: Absolutely. Parenting for sure. It helps you make decisions, right? It helps you in your relationships with your partner, with your friends. It's an incredibly important thing to explore. 

Lizzie Mintus: Thank you for your vulnerable story and congrats on being open to a coach, working with a coach, and becoming a coach. 

Zoe Curnoe: I still work on that stuff every day. You know, I still have to be aware that that's where I go when I'm tired, burnt out, and stressed. 

Lizzie Mintus: And if you are your manager in that case, and you are delivering feedback, which you think may be a surprise, or it's going to be rough on somebody, do you have any coaching insight on how you can deliver that in a way where you're clear and kind, but also honest. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. I mean, it comes back really to the, exactly what you just said, which is clear and kind to you. You start from that place of, there's something we need to discuss, but it might be hard to hear. I think acknowledging that and talking through it even before you start, because you also have to make sure the person is ready to receive it. Because if they aren't, you don't know what's happened that day. You don't know what's happened in their personal life. I mean, you have to have the conversation, but make sure that they're open to it at that moment.

And I actually encourage people to practice. If they are a little unsure or challenged or nervous about giving difficult feedback is to practice a little bit. Write down some words. Think about how you want to say it. And I'm a big believer of the model of being very clear about the behaviors- how they impact other people, how you would like it to change in the future, and how it will help them in their career, and their collaboration, and their teamwork.

So they understand that it's like physics. It's like the action, the result, and then the resulting action and how that will change their day-to-day and help them move forward. It kind of comes back to the radical candor movement. And I know some people kind of winced because some people will go into the super direct space. I can't remember what Kim Scott calls it, but it's like an asshole one. But most common is the ruinous empathy is outside, where you think not giving feedback to someone is actually being empathetic when it's the absolute worst thing you can do.

And people can go for years without being given any feedback at all about their behaviors and actions and work. And then they never improve and they never grow. And that's just not how humans are built. Like, we naturally want to learn things and grow and progress in life. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah, and you do want to know where you can improve, right? You just have to get used to hearing it. So would you just ask them, let's say you have a one-on-one schedule. Do you just ask them? I have some feedback I want to discuss. What's your word track there? Is now an okay time or would you like to schedule this for another time?

Zoe Curnoe: Absolutely. That's exactly what I would say. Like I would say, Hey, I can give it to you today. You know, I'd love to talk through it with you and I want to help you progress through it. And that's a really big one is them knowing that you are there to help them. You're not just there to deliver the feedback, being like, Here's my feedback. See ya, deal with it, which I have talked to managers that do that because they don't know how to help. And so they're like, well, my job is to deliver the feedback. It's like, your job is to walk beside this person and help them. 

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. And that goes back to your coaching, training, and your style of coaching.

Zoe Curnoe: Exactly. Yeah. And if you don't have the skill to help them, then you bring in someone who can and you may not. And that's fine. And that's what coaches are for. That's what we come in and help you with. 

But back to what you were saying, like, if they have some feedback for you. You know, I'm here to help you through it. Let me know, like, is today the right day to have this conversation? Would you like to schedule it for a different day? Some people want it right away because they will stew, right? They'll ruminate until you have that conversation. Or some people go, yeah, not today, actually, but I'd love to talk to you tomorrow or another day about it. Don't let it go very long, but you do have to check in with people. 

Let's think about relationships, like a romantic relationship. If you had to have a hard conversation with your partner, would you just dive into it, or would you be like, can we set aside some time to talk about this thing that's been bothering me?

Lizzie Mintus: Yeah. I like this specification too. That's great. 

I have one last question. Before I ask, I like to point people to your website, lumina-leadership.com. The last question, who has your biggest mentor or coach been and what is the advice that they've given you that has stuck with you? 

Zoe Curnoe: I'm going to give a shout out to Barry Hawkins. So Barry was my onboarding buddy when I was at Riot Games. And he interviewed me as well. I'll never forget my first day I met him. I got up to the floor where I was supposed to sit and I was looking around. They were like, find your onboarding buddy. And I look over and Barry is standing at my desk with his arms in the air. Like he just finished a gymnastics routine. It was incredibly funny and it was a very nice way to be introduced.

But he is the very first person in my career who taught me how to use agile methodologies in a way that actually worked. And I learned so much from him at Riot. And through him I got to work with the player behavior team there who worked on creating Healthy Player Communities inside League of Legends. I met some amazing people there through that. 

And then after we both left Riot, he has stayed a constant in my life. And I can just talk to him about anything, like life and work. And he always has a different perspective for me in a way that is not telling me what to do or anything like that, but is helping me see things that I maybe can't see, but from a place of great experience and expertise that really helps me kind of work through things in a way that is super caring and empathetic as well. It's been great having him be a part of my life, and just learning and having him alongside me. And he's always cheerleading as well. He's always like, yeah, go do it. 

And then sometimes when I'm talking to him, people just kind of cut through the noise. And just say, I hear what you're saying, but I know you and I know that you love this thing and I'm surprised you're not doing that thing that you love. And it will be like, oh, whoa. Okay. I hadn't thought about that. And I think we always need those people in our lives who can cut through the noise. 

Lizzie Mintus: And you like that, especially. That's your feedback style you like to receive. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah, but it's still a very caring and empathetic way, but it's very clear. And it just quiets the noise that's going on in there. Yeah. 

Lizzie Mintus: And you've built that trust. Congrats on finding your person and so happy what Sarah did to have him be your onboarding buddy. 

Zoe Curnoe: Yeah. It was very funny. I mean, he was very senior at the time. In his view, I've never asked him this, but I think when he interviewed me, he was like, I'm going to grab onto that one and see if I can mentor her in this situation. And he did, and I'm very grateful that he was there as my support. 

Lizzie Mintus: And now you get to give it back. 

Zoe Curnoe: Exactly. 

Lizzie Mintus: We've been talking to Zoe Curnoe, who's the founder of Lumina Leadership. Zoe, where can people go to hire you to be their coach? 

Zoe Curnoe: The best place is LinkedIn. I love posting on LinkedIn. I just write about what I'm thinking about that day, or about leadership, or a little hints and tips and things. And you can actually book a little discovery session with me on there just from the little link that's on LinkedIn. But that's kind of where I hang out. I'm not on Twitter anymore. I am also on Blue Sky, but I never remember the whole Blue Sky thing, but I'm Amazoe in most online spaces. A M A Z O E. And then just my name's Zoe Curnoe on LinkedIn. I'd love to chat with people about how I can help them. 

Lizzie Mintus: Thank you so much. 

Zoe Curnoe: Thank you.

Thanks so much for listening to the show this week. To catch all the latest from Here's Waldo, you can follow us on LinkedIn. Be sure to click subscribe to get future episodes. We'll see you next time.